Referring to family members

[lethargic_man]

[Poll #1786807]

Comments

[liv]

In that situation either is acceptable; I'd probably tend towards the more formal description as a minor courtesy to the non-related person. Though I'd likely say "our father" or "our mother" in the presence of a sibling, not "my".

[snjstar.livejournal.com]

I'd called them Mummy and Daddy.

[curious-reader.livejournal.com]

I call them with their first names. I usually say 'my mother' or 'my father' when I talk to people who do not know them. Otherwise I always use first names. It might because the first 7 3/4 years my mother was working most of the day and my father was only there on holiday that I kept forgetting who he was. I was babysitted by my maternal grandmother the first 2 years and partially my maternal aunt. Then I spent the next 2 years with a nice German family after we have moved to another city. Then we moved again and I had some strange teenage babysitter who did not know what to do with me. I felt abandoned. I got used to play on my own. I have never had a good relationship with my parents and was not interested spending that much time with them. I told you how weired my parents are.

Oh for god's sake...!

[bluepork.livejournal.com]

I think "bone" of contention is a bit strong. A piece of gristle, perhaps.

Anyway, imo, you've both slightly missed the point, and biased the questionnaire.

What we always take the Michael out of you for is the way you use the word "father" rather than the pronoun (or whatever it is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronoun]!) "my" in the phrase "my father". The word "Father" imbues a level of formality which doesn't exist with the word "Dad". You don't address our parents as "Father" and "Mother" and you don't have that a formal relationship with them. You address them as "Mum" and "Dad". I think that use of the terms "father" or "mother" as direct address, whilst common a generation or two ago, have fallen out of use.

So the examples in your questionnaire confuse the issue. For example, are you asking "Mum" or "Mother"? Or are you asking "Mum" or "My Mum"?

Re: Oh for god's sake...!

[lethargic-man.livejournal.com]

So the examples in your questionnaire confuse the issue. For example, are you asking "Mum" or "Mother"? Or are you asking "Mum" or "My Mum"?

The pronouns aren't the issue, or weren't at least until livredor muddied the issue by bringing them in; they're only in the examples, which, being prefixed by "e.g." weren't intended to be the only answers possible. The issue, as described in the poll, is familiar forms ("Mum", "Dad") versus non-familiar forms ("mother", "father").

What we always take the Michael out of you for is the way you use the word "father" rather than the pronoun (or whatever it is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronoun]!) "my" in the phrase "my father". The word "Father" imbues a level of formality which doesn't exist with the word "Dad". You don't address our parents as "Father" and "Mother" and you don't have that a formal relationship with them. You address them as "Mum" and "Dad". I think that use of the terms "father" or "mother" as direct address, whilst common a generation or two ago, have fallen out of use.

The point, which you're missing, is that I don't address them as "Mother", "Father", but refer to them, when not addressing a family member, with words indicative of their relationship to me, viz. "my mother", "my father", with lower-case M and F, which are not unduly formal when used as such, whereas "my mum" and "my dad" come across to me as too informal for me.

At the time of writing, twice as many respondents to my poll have the same usage as me as use the familiar forms, putting you firmly in the minority.

Re: Oh for god's sake...!

[bluepork.livejournal.com]

Even though you use the pronouns only in examples, they are still very relevant. In psychology it's called the availability heuristic. There are whole West Wing episodes about the bias in polling. Don't belittle it.

I wasn't commenting on Liverdor's reply, but on your original post.

The point, which you're missing, is that I don't address them as "Mother", "Father", but refer to them, when not addressing a family member, with words indicative of their relationship to me, viz. "my mother", "my father", with lower-case M and F, which are not unduly formal when used as such, whereas "my mum" and "my dad" come across to me as too informal for me.

No. I'm not missing this point. This was the exact point I was making. You are unusual in this view of the formality or otherwise of the terms under discussion.

At the time of writing, twice as many respondents to my poll have the same usage as me as use the familiar forms, putting you firmly in the minority.

... firmly in the minority of a statistically insignificant group of people answering what is, imo, a poor questionnaire. You may note that I haven't answered your poll. IF I were to cast my vote, and I'm not going to, because of my perceived flaws in your questioning process, the results would be, at the time of writing:

Option 1 - 3
Option 2 - 6
Option 3 - 2

If I got the wife to join in (and you know she agrees with me), then only half of respondents agree with you.

Either way, it's a silly argument to be having, because:

twice as many respondents to my poll have the same usage as me as use the familiar forms, putting you firmly in the minority

doesn't mean that they're correct, and I'm not saying that I'm correct either. Just that you sound silly saying "my father", and I'm not going to change my mind about that, because it's about perception!

Re: Oh for god's sake...!

[lethargic-man.livejournal.com]

Even though you use the pronouns only in examples, they are still very relevant. In psychology it's called the availability heuristic. There are whole West Wing episodes about the bias in polling. Don't belittle it.

This is part of the reason I gave up writing: It's impossible to write anything without someone, somewhere, picking holes in it. And this isn't the first time (http://lethargic-man.livejournal.com/331229.html#t1193181) you've had difficulty parsing the English of something I've blogged that no one else has this problem for. Anyhow, be that as it may...

... firmly in the minority of a statistically insignificant group of people answering what is, imo, a poor questionnaire.

Well, I do what I can. I don't have many people reading my blog; short of exhorting everyone who sees it to repost links to this poll on their own blogs, this is the best I can do. It's still better, I maintain, than having this argument amongst ourselves without any evidence of what other people do at all. I might not be able to prove anything statistically significant, but I can still prove that at least five other people agree with me.

Either way, it's a silly argument to be having, because:

"twice as many respondents to my poll have the same usage as me as use the familiar forms, putting you firmly in the minority"

doesn't mean that they're correct, and I'm not saying that I'm correct either. Just that you sound silly saying "my father", and I'm not going to change my mind about that, because it's about perception!

Exactly: what you mean is not that I sound silly, but that you think I sound silly, and what I have demonstrated is that there are at least five other people who don't think referring thus sounds silly (or don't mind sounding silly, but from what I know of them, pseudomonas is the only respondent that could possibly fit into that category).

Re: Oh for god's sake...!

[bluepork.livejournal.com]

Ok. I've had this underlying feeling of unease through all of this thread. I've been torn between ignoring this whole thing as beneath me and defending myself against what seems to be point scoring. I think I should have gone with the former.

Well, I do what I can.

Do you? What you could have done is nothing, or address your problem to me personally, rather than try to "prove" me wrong by publishing your opinions on the internet. How on earth do you think I would react, on discovering that I am the subject of an online questionnaire? I suppose I could campaign for some people to tip the questionnaire the other way, if I didn't think the whole thing was massively trivial.

And this isn't the first time you've had difficulty parsing the English of something I've blogged

Again with the accusatory tone! Seriously, you make out that I have difficulty understanding English. Are you actually trying to goad me?

at least five other people agree with me.

No offence to anyone reading this blog, but five anonymous readers of your blog are not going to change how I use the English language. If you feel you have "demonstrated" something then that's great for you. I wasn't even aware that this was an "argument" between us until you used the word.

Obviously, I can't stop you if you wish to respond to this comment, but I am bowing out of this thread. I haven't fully decided whether I am also bowing out of actively engaging in commentary on your blog or even bowing out of reading your blog altogether. I do know that I don't have these seemingly pedantic dialogues with anyone else, least of all publicly, and I just can't be bothered with the stress any more.

Re: Oh for god's sake...!

[lethargic-man.livejournal.com]

What you could have done is nothing, or address your problem to me personally, rather than try to "prove" me wrong by publishing your opinions on the internet.

I don't have a problem; you're taking the whole thing too seriously, and too personally. I'm not trying to prove you wrong; I'm trying to prove that my behaviour is not unreasonable.

How on earth do you think I would react, on discovering that I am the subject of an online questionnaire?

How do you think I feel, being ridiculed in the presence of non-family members every time I use English in a way that to me feels natural?

"And this isn't the first time you've had difficulty parsing the English of something I've blogged"

Again with the accusatory tone! Seriously, you make out that I have difficulty understanding English. Are you actually trying to goad me?

No, I'm trying to say that different people use, and interpret, language in different ways, and that your parsing of English is evidently not very compatible with my written English, but that you seem to be in a minority of one here. Different ≠ wrong: I'm not trying to mount a vendetta against you here!

"at least five other people agree with me."

No offence to anyone reading this blog, but five anonymous readers of your blog are not going to change how I use the English language.

I'm not trying to change how you use the English language; I'm trying to justify how I use it. (And in any case, as for anonymous, you know who at least livredor is (and if you don't, a quick peruse of her profile icons (http://www.livejournal.com/allpics.bml?user=livredor) ought to make that clear), and likewise (http://aviva-m.livejournal.com/profile) for aviva_m.)

Obviously, I can't stop you if you wish to respond to this comment, but I am bowing out of this thread. I haven't fully decided whether I am also bowing out of actively engaging in commentary on your blog or even bowing out of reading your blog altogether. I do know that I don't have these seemingly pedantic dialogues with anyone else, least of all publicly, and I just can't be bothered with the stress any more.

That's your decision. I didn't start this whole thing to get at you, and I apologise if I gave the impression I did, but I don't apologise for wanting to defend myself by finding out what other people do when I get the mickey taken out of me for how I speak.

[curious-reader.livejournal.com]

Oh, now that bluepork pointed it out I was confused by this formulation. You meant when you talk to somebody else about them. I thought you wanted to know when talking to them. I would have left out I address them when I talk to them.

Nominative, genitive, accusative, vocative

[miss-whiplash.livejournal.com]

It's interesting, the presence of family members would moderate my choice (were my parents still alive) of descriptor from my 'parent' to their normal form of address. I can't be sure why; maybe it would sound affected when someone who knew how I would normally refer to them was present. There might also be other contextual influences involved.

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