Today's linguistic rant

[lethargic_man]

There is no such word as "ham[ae]ntasc?hen"! "Hom[oe]ntasc?hen", yes; "oznei Haman", yes; but "ham[ae]ntasc?hen" no! It's a Yiddish word; you can't put Hebrew elements with Israeli pronunciation into a Yiddish word; you have to use Ashkenazi pronunciation!

Sadly, I think I'm onto a loser here:

Word	Google hits
homontashen	205
homontaschen	33
homentashen	10,400
homentaschen	366,000
hamantashen	71,100
hamantaschen	161,000
hamentaschen	1,050,000
hamantashen	1,130,000

Grrr!

Comments

[naath.livejournal.com]

I'm in ur languidge evolvin it :-p

[lethargic-man.livejournal.com]

But where's the picture to go with it? ;^b

[dhole.livejournal.com]

In Hungarian or Polish Yiddish, it'd be spelled Homen, sure; for Lithuanian or Gallitsiana Yiddish, it'd be closer to an "uh" sound than an "ooh."

All the same, I'm not sure if "Humantashen" is really the best spelling. Unless you're making soylent green flavored treats.

[curious-reader.livejournal.com]

I Germanize it like everybody else I know and my recipe book but put the English spelling for those who are not German speakers. My German recipe book says Hamantaschen but I write for English speakers Hamantashen. I have no idea how the German Jews pronounced it.

[lethargic-man.livejournal.com]

The point I'm making is that הָמָן in Yiddish is pronounced "Homon", with the sound in English "hot", not "Haman" with the sound in English "cat".

That the word is Yiddish and not German is shown by the fact the singular is, apparently, homontash, not Homontasche.

[pseudomonas.livejournal.com]

The vowel in Hamantaschen is closer to CUT, not CAT.

[curious-reader.livejournal.com]

Exactly, that is what I wanted to say. I have never heard otherwise. As I said I heard it Germanized. So it is a German 'a' sound just short.

[pseudomonas.livejournal.com]

I think lethargic_man was suggesting that it should be a vowel as in COT or PUSH.

[curious-reader.livejournal.com]

Yes, I know what he meant. It is just not what everybody else says. He is wrong assuming that people read it exactly like English. Well, not if they are Jewish or at least know what the Jewish say.

[lethargic-man.livejournal.com]

As the only person in this discussion who actually uses the Ashkenazi pronunciation myself, I can vouch that in Hebrew both vowels have the sound of English "cot"; in Yinglish, the second one can be weakened to that of the first vowel in "about".

What everyone else says is the result of non-Ashkenazi speakers attempting to use a pronunciation they don't really know; in such circumstances sometimes they get it right; sometimes they get it appalling wrong (e.g. "cholla", which is the right two vowels but in the wrong order!).

phrase mir mayne yoren

[mike-koplow.livejournal.com]

(As my late mother used to say.) (Except that she mispronounced "phrase" as "vey'z.")

When I was a mere sprout o' an ake, my parents and I would sometimes drive into Chicago from our home in northwest Indiana and stop at the now-defunct Lazar's (http://considerthesource2.blogspot.com/search?q=lazar%27s) for salami and challah. Printed on the challah bag was "Just say 'holly'!"! Phrase mir!

Also, an acquaintance of ours was once talking to the principal of their son's public school about bringing in Passover food for his lunch during Passover. The principal said, "Sure, a lot of the Jewish kids bring in mah-tzee." We know from this that the principal was Jewish; no non-Jew would pronounce it that way. Phrase mir!

Re: phrase mir mayne yoren

[lethargic-man.livejournal.com]

phrase mir mayne yoren

I'm afraid that though I use lots of Yiddish words, I don't speak it (and my nascent German isn't up to the task); could you translate, please?

Printed on the challah bag was "Just say 'holly'!"! Phrase mir!

Also, an acquaintance of ours was once talking to the principal of their son's public school about bringing in Passover food for his lunch during Passover. The principal said, "Sure, a lot of the Jewish kids bring in mah-tzee."

Given that you're within a thousand miles (my localisation of US accents is weak) of places where people say names like "Canady" and "Montany", I'm not in the slightest bit surprised by this.